My ATGC, mower beginnings

[ryf]

Ok since I'm coming over to the ATLMA side of the world, and what I'm doing may interest this site more than others... I'm posting my All Terrain Go Cart updates here, and plan to set a click to here link on my other thread on heymow.

ok in the pic below, you get a shot from the carts low back side, gives you a visual of the where whats going.


This is just a shot of the motor mount area and the sick stance from the rear.


This is just a "from the seat" shot.. the seats a little far back, but you get the idea.



Posted on: April 01, 2007, 03:09:08 PMgot alot done yesterday.... more pics are coming though, brighter outdoor pics (was raining earlier)

this is a shot of the axle and elbow protectors/ side guards... starting to look like something.


front and back shots of the shock mount area, it WILL be tied into a rollcage before its rolling, but can currently hold my weight bouncing on it (I'm a healthy 325lbs, so its safe enough) check out those hand made front a-arms!



the "far and away shot" there will be outdoor pics with more lighting later, but it was early when I got these. its sitting high in the front, keep in mind my weight, settling springs(most soften way up after a few rides), and adjusting later if needed, it'll be A-OK I think.


<snippets from the other build log>

I'm going 25 tooth tranny side to 11 tooth axle side, so I won't have to overspin the trans as much, might last longer that way. my engine is already governed to 2000 rpm (from factory) planning to leave it as such for now(note, for now).

I'm trying to figure out a good pulley size to reduce slippage.

I don't recommend welding the rear axles of most transaxles since they aren't hardened all the way through. saying that, since it will have no weight on it, I plan on welding the drive gears in place rather than pay for a keyway to be machined.

I shortened the transaxles to get inside my wheelbase and keep the length respectable (has to be under 50" wide to run in Wayne national forest)

if I had planned better, since I'm not overdriving it, I should have gotten a hydrostatic as it would've made shifting on the fly less stressfull on the tranny, maybe in version 2. i know they are not meant to be shifted on the fly, but I'll do it till it breaks and try some thing else.

Moved over to a bigger emptier garage/workshop, and took my tools with me, its my father in laws place.  got my front suspension and side protection bars mounted today, so will go back and get pics of pogress if I don't work on it anymore. only thing left is pedals & hand brake, steering, and bend out a roll bar. so we are only at the most a month away!  woohoo...

[MTDrider1160]

Did you get those pillow blocks at northern tool?

[ryf]

YES... they are listed as "buyers" they seem pretty darn hefty.. if the don't workout, I'll weld a plate to the bottom and find something thats from the "flange" type I can live with. they are pretty hard to see there, you must have a good eye.

[MTDrider1160]

Yea they are extremely heavy duty! I'm using them in my toro rebuild.

[money89tractors]

Those A-Arms look nice!! I think thats exactally what some members building a Supermod could use for their suspension setup. i do agree it sits higher in the front than rear, but with your weight in it it should "settle". Is it me, or are your front tires tilted?... \     /?   maybe because they are hard mounted to the A-Arms....should straightin up when added weight is on it.

Whats the zip ties (wire ties) on the shocks for?

-Phil

[ryf]

those are the nylon shock straps for new shocks... I need to get some chain as travel limiters, its to keep it from going higher and the shock sitting topped out (bad for seals)
yes they ARE hard mounted, since its a single arm deal, its easier and IMO safer.

they get a little above perfect with weight, and should settle after a few spirited runs to near perfect... another thought was to settle them with a ratchet strap, still considering that a bit far. with round balloon tires it won't matter too much if its off a little anyway. 

I have 17 new and better outdoor pics, my brother in law and I got it rigged up with a cross bar on the spindles (for moving it around, not for long term use) so we could get some better pictures outside. I'm not going to waste time or thread space posting them here... but I did put them on Photobucket for those who are enjoying the view!  if you decide to check out the better pics, the tires on the back are not tight, so in some pics they will look crooked (finger tight cuz we take it all off to weld)


http://s129.photobucket.com/albums/p224/ryf_photos/atlma/

[money89tractors]

wow, looking at the pics, yall have done some great work. it seems the cart is heavy build, as it should be. i think your shocks will settle on their own just fine. i would consider putting some cross braces across the "floor" of te cart, so you dont get chassie flew that might throw your crain off. is it me, or is the front wider than the rear?

-Phil

[ryf]

the rear is almost 3 inches wider, is a visual thing since there isn't much up front. floor braces are in plan, as is a sheetmetal botom and between the motor and I. those are going to be pretty close to last and won't take long for either.

now the motor plate on the back is narrower, but thats not what you mean I think...

I want it strong, sometimes that means heavy... but thats why I started with 17.5 hp.  with 500+cc's I'm trying to gear for torque with a little speed. (20ish-25) so I think its very feasible!

theres more to come my friends

[Chris]

That thing is going to be amazing when done! I was looking at buying an ATGC the other day (was looking at them in Northern), the one that I wanted was over $3,000!!!!!

Kinda hefty if you ask me. Your build looks like it's going to be much cooler than the 3k model too.

[ryf]

thanks chris, I built it to take the kind of abuse I enjoy  :biggrin:


I'm reposting the conversation I had else where so it can be in view to everyone, I'm still open for opinions, thnx all

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I had a friend of my family over and he keeps going, "is it a kit.... are you sure its not a kit..." heck I don't even have a plan in stone... just alot of thinking, measuring and working... I know how much room things need, and I can visualize the solution, bounce it off my brother in law and father in law who have been helping, and we come to a good final solution. (helps to not be the only one trying to solve every problem)

in my mind it looks GOOD.

hey, on another note, I'm having problems finding BIG pulleys... where do you get them? I mean like 8" or so to get rid of slip. thx
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money89tractors
      Re: my cart build progress
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2007, 10:57:11 PM » 

8" OD, whats the ID? 1"?

-Phil

p.s. i think the cart looks awesome!
 

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ryf

     Re: my cart build progress
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2007, 11:10:02 PM » Modify Remove 

I just don't know how big I'll have to go to get very little slip, trying for darn near none if I tug the pedal a little..... I could go as high as 10" drive and 9" trans... as in I have room for that, it is tight, but its doable.

so I figure I can ask you guys what you've been trying, chris is working a double 6" but he hasn't tried it yet. what do they use for "racing" diameters in Imow and such? locally all I can find is 4.5"x1" and 3.5" or 5"x5/8" which I think will slip like the devil

Mcmaster car is very tempting, but before I order anything, I'd like to get an idea where to start, ya know?

p.s.  then you'll love it when you see the side bars and front suspension. 
 
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money89tractors

 
      Re: my cart build progress
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2007, 11:18:46 PM » 

i would think 6" and 6" would work fine, but Chris said his setup slips like crazy if it gets wet. My stock Case 110 has a 2.5 or 3" up front and a 6" in back and it slips when wet but grabs fine if you tug on the pedal a little with your toe (even when the whole driveline is underwater   ) if you can get 8" and 8" i say you would have no problems with slipage ever.

-Phil
 
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Get in, Sit down, Shut up, and HOLD ON! 
 
 
 

[Chris]

Ryf: www.surpluscenter.com

That's where I got like 80% of the parts for my Toro build (that I have yet to utilize!), I got some double-groove 6 1/2" pulleys for ridiculously cheap, they have them in sizes over 15 inches!!!

[ryf]

I've looked there... can't seem to find them in 5/8" bore unless you went with 2 piece (hub and outters) you got a part number?

[Chris]

IIRC the largest 5/8" bore they had was 6"

I got a 6 1/2" double grove with a 3/4" bore and plan on putting a small piece of 1/16" sheetmetal in the bore to get my 1/8" extra that I'm missing so it'll fit on the 700's 5/8" shaft.

[ryf]

now THAT makes more sense.. I felt stupid not being able to find it

MCmaster Carr has 7" 5/8 bore single v for a not too bad a price

right now I am sticking with what I have to see how it works. 3.5 motor and 5.5 transaxle side. it will slip I think, but I want to see how bad before I start going doubles and etc...

I thought about the swappable ones at surplus center, seemed like a darn cool idea. cost a fortune comparatively though.

[Off Roader]

Ok i have a gocart that is crap but could have potential. How are you working in the clutch. My problem is i dont think there will be enough room. It will have to be a really small. Any advice would help.

[ryf]

simple... just like a tractor, just shorter.. you can buy belts as short as 21" I bought a small idler at TSC (tractor supply center) if you add half or so the circumference of the pulleys, they can be darn near on top each other, assuming you leave enough room to one side for the idler.

or you could pay $180 bucks or so for a good centrifugal clutch chain clutch.. and you could have them just short of touching.

[ryf]

ok... posting to  keep you guys hooked.. should have pics tommorow, as of today I have a completed steering assembly! no brakes but we dragged it around the yard (with a 4 wheeler) to "test" the steering throw and cuz me and the brother in law wanted to. the seat is now permanently mounted, as well as a control box mounted on the steering wheel for ignition and switches.

lost a little time this week as I'm also working on redoing my kitchen... so time is dear right now.
Posted on: April 28, 2007, 09:08:59 PM



got the roll cage pretty far today... it looks like a beast

[mtd]

That will probably go more places than my 4 wheeler.Nice rig.

[money89tractors]

Man that thing looks so mean from the front! Question, i know we had concern about thoe front tires "leaning" in at the bottom and figured it would correct itself with your added weight in the cart, did it?

Are you planning on running a bar from your main "ark" over your head to the front of the frame? If not, i would think about it, it will give you added strength and protection.

Overall, a VERY nice setup!

-Phil

P.S...you have a rear tire on backwards :P

[ryf]

yeah I know about the tire, I figure I'd get it flipped when I take it apart for paint, thats what happens when you get a $35 (per wheel and tire) for a $60 each retail tire(no wheel), sometimes it costs $6 to get one flipped, haha.

truthfully, no halo bars for now, its super stiff, and I'm a older big boy and hate to have to crawl into it. I do plan on adding a wrap-around on the front, to protect the steering bits and hold the winch, so it will get about 9-12" longer. as for the protection it would add, yeah it would, but it wouldn't be easy to get in and out of.

about those front tires, yeah it gets pretty close to flat with weight (I set it about 1" high to account for settling of the springs) having big round tires keeps it from mattering AT ALL, it corners like a dream, period.

[Chris]

That thing looks awesome! I'm sure it's going to be one badass ride!

You're going to let me drive it, right?

[ryf]

hmmm... I 'll let you know? once I get all the bugs worked out we can probably work something out at one of the rides.

I just found out my father in laws craftsman lt1000 has a 19.5 opposed twin.... I am giving him notice it may get stolen. I will of course replace it with my 17.5... I'd gain gobs of torque with the second cylinder extra displacement.

[MTDrider1160]

Wow that thing looks awesome!!

[ryf]

I have a great great update....

Motor runs!, tranny works! need to get brakes finished and get a clutch pedal hooked up and the wiring sorted totally, but.... ITS ALIVE..... it drove, and I'm VERY pleased! I'm estatic that my $400 (new) motor wasn't a dud, and the trans felt very good... I'll be going over tommorow and buttoning up wiring, and taking photos!

[ryf]

ok I'm a shmuck no photos, camera issues.. but front end is done other than final welding, i mounted the head lights and gas tank (not on front) as well today, also have a line on the bits to finish the brakes, so lots of promise.. figured out the clutch, should be able to have that "correct" tommorow hopefully anyway.

did I mention my clutch idler is a belt tensioner off a car? its pretty trick, I'll try and get pics.

if we had been able to get up with guy with the parts for the brakes, I could've gone for a good shakedown ride on memorial day. everything is starting to get to those tedious final parts, which will include an entire disassembly for painting. I'm still trying to decide about the rear transaxle issue, but I'll give it solid testing to see whats what.

[tractorman]

WOW!!  That thing looks great. You think you could get a video of it running and on the trail?

[ryf]

might be a while, no video camera other than the cell phone (yucky) and the digital cams acting weird, its my wifes so she'll have to re program it again (she's worn the buttons down so I don't know what does what, kind of a pain)

I'm within 3-4 weeks of being able to run it with brakes and all the parts installed, I might try and track a tape style video camera down for borrow from one of our friends with kids (I have the computer setup for recopying those) I don't want to nuisance anyone until its "time" ya know.

its been run a few times, I really need to get pics for you guys since I'm 2 weeks behind on them, maybe I'll borrow my brother in laws tommorow.
Posted on: May 26, 2007, 08:42:53 PMits sitting on a 4x8 trailer for scale, thanks for the support.

[mtd]

Are you going to put a floor pan in it?

[ryf]

yes, it is not finished, it was on the trailer to get it up to work height. its just coming along very nice and though some pics were overdue.

[mtd]

Well you got your self one sweet ass ride.

[money89tractors]

Very nice!! everytime i see this "carT" its better and better.! great work!

-Phil

[Chris]

Holy crap man, that's so cool!!! I want one now!!!

[mtd]

Holy crap man, that's so cool!!! I want one now!!!

Me too!!!

[ryf]

if I was going to build them for profit, I think I'd go for the $400 to get a comet mag 44 and a 1 speed gearbox like on a snowmobile, only because it'd be harder to break. I think this will work, as long I'm the driver and remember to shift like a car. you mower gents wouldn't have a issue, but its not a car and not a gocart/golf cart/mule. so for some people it wouldn't work out IMO.

I'm still having second thoughts about the transaxle, its basically running with a load on it constantly (like climbing a hill) so you cannot slip shift it, but its also a brand new transaxle, so that may improve with wear in. BUT its working and its got torque to spare.

[mtd]

Yeah I like your rig and all but I think you shoould dump the motor and transaxle and replace it with a 3 wheeler motor/trans.

[Chris]

I like how he has it setup currently, the problem with changing it out to what you suggested is he would loose reverse... And probably a bunch of HP & Torque too...

[ryf]

me = back. yeah, if anythings going in there its a street bike engine, 750 CC's or more only. if I'm not going to have reverse, it will have a helluva forward. ;-)

[mtd]

My 3 wheeler motor has reverse and 5 speeds forward with a auto clutch I think something like that would work great.And I think a 750cc motor cycle engine would be nuts on that thing

[ryf]

I am nuts.... thats true....

I'm not against the three wheelers, most of them are under 250 though, and I'm tipping at 325lbs of dead, so I need something to get me up the hills :-)

[ryf]

OK breaking news..... its very rideable. played with the governor and clocked over 30mph in top gear at about 3/4 throttle, has some left but wasn't about to rev it out yet. new brakes work awesome, will get photos of install. we tried clocking it with gps, but my gps wasn't working right, didn't waste the time to fiddle with it. had to rely on my father in laws minivan as a chase car for now, I feel the results are suspect though since he had to slow down in the turns and the road was not straight many places. will get gps results asap...

if anyone is thinking of mimicking my gearing, its a 6.5 drive pulley, 4.5 trans pulley, 25 tooth chain on trans, 26 tooth on axle, 23" tires = 30 mph with my heavy self and over built go kart. I changed the axle gear after I realized my math wasn't 100% right.

did a steep driveway of loose gravel, pulled strong in second, very much enough torque.

things left to do.

1. shifter assembly.
2. floor pan
3. choke I can reach easily
4. retainer straps for front suspension
5. enjoy it a few times
6. paint

[Chris]

5. enjoy it a few times

Now that is the most important one right there

[ryf]

yessir... its a blast to ride.... have such a low Center of gravity makes it corner awesome... front suspension is near perfect.

[ryf]

its pretty much done now, ran it around after some soft runs, and opened it up, 37 mph, more than fast enough IMO. things left to finish, are rear roll bar/protection. rear push bumper, dry storage. considering 37 mph is way too fast for alot of the trails I ride, I'll probably end up slowing it a little to get more torque.

[MTDrider1160]

WOW!!!!!!!! That thing is awesome!!! is that the GM alternator youve been talking about??

[money89tractors]

only thing i see with that alternator being where it is, is it gettin packed with mud and water off the tire.

personally i would leave the speed where it is for "trail to trail" transport and just use the other gears you have for actually running the trails.

-Phil

[MTDrider1160]

How much money would you say youve spent so far on it??

[ryf]

yes thats the gm alternator.

fenders/skirting are in its future, but I do not count that towards "finishing", they will protect the alt and motor from slingage.

costs..... could be done cheaper, but not with new parts

trans $90
motor $460
wheels and tires $90
axle, hubs and hangers, $75
misc pulleys and belts, $100
gears and chains $50-60
Steel so far, $200 ish maybe
brakes all free except lines, fittings and fluid $35
I'll keep think, there is more.

[Chris]

A supertrapp!!!!!! Awesome!!!! How does that thing sound??

You should really put some fenders on the rear, especially by that alt. That thing is friggen awesome!!

[ryf]

if only one word, LOUD. but good, not harley good, but gets the heads turned before the gokart gets into view. we had it out on the "bottoms" which is unflooded river bed, its exposed about 20-25 days out of 30, and one of the other 4 wheelers who are locals said,"we heard it coming and stopped to see what it was, and it was worth waiting for" I was out running with my brother in law and his foreman 400 4x4, we took turns running the piss out of it to break something, on non-paved surfaces, I was easily keeping up with several four-wheelers (a rincon 650 4x4 as well), except for those truely nuts and fearless. I think a fair portion of me keeping up was my longer wheelbase and extra width, and lower CG made my ride much more stable, so I wasn't letting off on the bad parts like they were.

oh yeah, $50 for the supertrap, had the pipe and elbows $1.00 for the big ass washer I made the flange from.

if you were building one, I'd find a 820 transaxle or something equally heavy duty, as my major confidence issue is the transaxle, a 204-503, which is ok, but I still feel hesitant to go thumbs up for any old person to run it because its sintered (cast) instead of cut steel (CNC) gears. if I track one down, I will be upgrading fo' sure

[ryf]

Two pics of the tacked in front hoop which will support my homemade fiberglass hood 



my motor protection hoop/bumper with tail light and triple brake lights, you'll know I hit the brakes! it is final welded since it works soooo nice 




I've been playing with it, I actually did this work last week, after I cut open my leg, but I wasn't able to get these updates up cuz I'm a slacker!

[money89tractors]

Looks like it does pretty good in the mud!!

In pic 2, might wanna check out the front rim, little bent there.

Overall, the carts turned out very nice.

-Phil

[Chris]

That thing is so damn cool!

[tractorman]

Hey Ryf in the last picture si that the automotive brake setup? What are you using 4x4 pattern hub on a 4 bolt hub? Or do you have to make one a hub?

[MTDrider1160]

In pic 2, might wanna check out the front rim, little bent there.

A LITTLE!!

[ryf]

you guys had me going on the bent rim thing... if you look REAL close, its the hard brake line thats just really close in curvature (its about 8" away)


tractorman...

yes it is an automotive brake, its off a ford ASPIRE (retarded escort parts) it is 4x100, I used the 4x4 sprocket mount (passthrough hole) from Northerntool, it is centered, but the holes are not a perfect match, since 4x4 = 4x102ish. I just drilled the holes larger in the sprocket mount, used an appropriate bolt and washer, and voila. the ford aspire had the smallest rotor/caliper combo I could find.. some years of Metro/saturn S are small and 4x100 as well, as well as stock REAR disc's off some honda civic, almost all FWD 4 bolt hondas are 4x100, but the front discs are massive, but you can probably find a ricer willing to part with their stock rear brake parts if you wait long enough, I happened to get mine free, not a ricer, but a friends parts car.


the caliper is off the same car, and its a floating bolt on like most cars. I would recommend welding in a crossbar with gussets (or a gusset plate) to mount the caliper to to keep twist down, especially with a mowers sheet metal sides, you want to distribute the load accordingly or you'll just do damage/rip metal. the idea is to create more weld surface over a larger area using gussets, a gusset plate is basically something you weld the bar to (like 3/16"-1/4" plate) that you can then weld or bolt to the sheet metal to
distribute the brake force.

how it does in the mud, FANTASIC. it also climbs hills like a midget in a tiger pen


(that was for you chris)

[Chris]

......it also climbs hills like a midget in a tiger pen


(that was for you chris)

BWAHAHHAHA!!!!! OH man you jsut made me burst out laughing, I need to save that one and use it sometime!!!

[tractorman]

Ryf, do you know if the acme mower sports 3/4 4 bolt hubs will work? 
http://www.acmemowersports.com/4_on_4_aluminum_hubs.html

I know ti says for 1 inch and 1 1/4 inch axles they are also made for 3/4 transaxles.

[ryf]

I want to say yes, they loook like they have enough meat to drill a little, so I'd say go for it, remember when you drill it out, you only want to go 1cm bigger on each hole,(about 1/16") as the other hole will give you the other cm you need to get it to line up..


should be perfect, I prefer steel, only cuz I can weld on it but ally is good considering its for racing!