Four Wheel Drive.

[MTDrider1160]

I'm sure everybody on here has thought about custom made 4wd on a mower at least once.  Maybe some of you have ideas worked out.  Just thought I'd post this to see if anybody had any ideas, plans, thoughts or secret complete setups.  There was a little talk about this back on heymow before all the boards got deleted.  So with that said anybody got anything?

[tractorman]

All I can say is........
WHEEL HORSES!
Thats the first thing that comes to mind. They mad 4 wheel drive axles and setups back in the 60's when farmers wanted more pulling force. I am pretty sure you can still find these setups some where.

[MTDrider1160]

Phil would probaly know the exact models.

[money89tractors]

No idea on models there, but i have had an idea about 4 wheel drive for a mower. If anyone has ever seen how the Polaris 4x4 quads are setup, youll understand what my idea is.

Basically, after you get your rear axle setup and the gear ratio you want set, run a chain from another sprocket off the rear axle to the front of the mower on to a short axle with universal joints at each end. From the universal joint, add a bearing and another short axle for the wheel hub to mount to. Then build yourself some spindles around the bearing (basically a wheel bearing like a truck).

-Phil

[MTDrider1160]

What about using a 700 that has the output shaft with 2 ends?

[money89tractors]

if you are talkin about 2 sprockets on the output shaft of a 700 trans, that would work just the same. only problem i see there would be too much torque on the outside sprocket and it snapping the output shaft off.

-Phil

[ryf]

I would run a 700 to a jack shaft, and use a solid rear axle, and a differential in the front, or you will need a rack and pinion to fight the torque steer. check out http://www.edge.au.com/product_pircv.htm you will need a front end more complex to allow steering, but its a start.

[MTDrider1160]

if you are talkin about 2 sprockets on the output shaft of a 700 trans, that would work just the same. only problem i see there would be too much torque on the outside sprocket and it snapping the output shaft off.

-Phil

I'm talking about using the 700s that have the output shaft stick out on each side of the case.  Its usualy for the brake. 

Go to http://www.odref.com/peerless/700-SERIES/   and go to the 739, you can see how the output shaft has splines on both ends.

[money89tractors]

I'm talking about using the 700s that have the output shaft stick out on each side of the case.  Its usualy for the brake. 

That would work.

I would run a 700 to a jack shaft, and use a solid rear axle, and a differential in the front, or you will need a rack and pinion to fight the torque steer. check out http://www.edge.au.com/product_pircv.htm you will need a front end more complex to allow steering, but its a start.

Those are some AWESOME plans!!

I was doin some research on front spindles and CV shafts...they aint cheap. But if you buy just keyed u-joints, its much much cheaper, and if im thinking right, i can build my own knuckles.

I am however, unsure if i should try building on this plan with or without suspension. I believe without it would be easyier, but it would be awesome with suspension. The rear would be easy to do, but i would want the front to be a solid front axle (not independent).

-Phil

[ryf]

I see no reason to not have a suspended front end, you'll only need 2 more flange bearings and 2 more u-joints... I could see alot of reasons not to start with a suspended rear(think future upgrade), and for the rear a single arm like atv's use would be enough, as I hope no one gets the back end in the air too often.

[money89tractors]

Thats understandable. The reason i was thinking of a solid front axle (like in a 4x4 truck) is for that axle articulation.

-Phil

[ryf]

its your ride :-)

I'm just not sure articulation is the easiest way to keep the chain aligned, unless you go to a belt. got a picture on how you'll accomplish it?

[money89tractors]

I dont have pictures, but i can explain how i wanna do it.

Running the same setup and i said before (chain from the rear to the front), i could connect the chain to a RAGB. From there, i would connect the output of the RAGB to a T drive like the UK guys use. Then run the axles off that to the knuckles.

Picture of the T drive

-Phil

[ryf]

but how are you keeping the chains on when the axle articulates? chains are not lke belts, they require a good alignment or they will click and pop under a load, and as soon as it stretches, they'll pop off, thats with slight misalignment. you need to explain how your going to keepthe chain on, because "articulating axle" not only means the whole axle pivots up,down, which in MOST cases will change the chain length through the swing, it also means "off camber" axle, which will cause HIGH mis-alignment of the chain. how are you going to keep the chain on when its length is changing AND its twisting. a RAGB won't help when you twist it 15 degrees (right up left down)

if you want to build it the way you are describing, a solid swingarm (left and right go up and down together) and no RAGB is the only way it will work with the info provided. if this is what you are going for, cool beans, if not, keep thinking about the independant, as it would be easier than what your going after right now, OR, figure out how to battle these problems.

[Chris]

Phil, why not run a driveshaft?

There are some great ideas running around here. Dunno if the "recovery more" post is still around here, but what I was planning on doing with that beast was one of two things (keep in mind no suspension)...

1) Three Transaxles. For the front, a transaxle off a rear-steer mower.

2) Two live axles in the rear (hooked together with a chain), driven by a 700 with a differential in the front powered off another chain hooked to one of the rear axles.

Both would have a hi/lo range box before the initial drivetrain.

[money89tractors]

Maybe that will help clear up how i plan my setup.

-Phil

[Chris]

I see that working pretty darn good

[money89tractors]

I'm glad someone sees my madness through the picture there I kinda figured if i drew it out, it would be a slight bit more imaginable.

-Phil

[Newbs]

What would you use for universial joints in the front axel? When I was considering this topic I thought of uni joints out of a car steering columb. Don't know how you would join them to the axel though - weld maybe, you would have to be a good welder and have a good rig to make sure it was straight. Or you could make your own uni-joints, If someone designs a good one they could post it up for others to copy maybe?? same for the spindles

Great idea though, I want to do it

[money89tractors]

As for u joints, you can buy U joints that will fit over a 1" axle and lock in with a set screw. The knucles are what i think will be the trick.

-Phil

[Newbs]

This is my old rear axle with differential



So I can just cut the axle and slip those uni joints over them - awsome

I agree about the steering knuckles being hard, i still reckon it's doable though

[money89tractors]

It may take some looking around, but i know you can buy u joints to fit over 1" and 3/4" shafts. Steering joints off a car are 3/4" i believe. They would work well, only difference being they wouldnt fit over a round axle. The axle would have to have a flat spot on it, thats how it locks onto the axle.

After you come off the u joint with the shorter "wheel axle", you could put a bearing, then build a casing around the bearing for your knuckle.

-Phil
Posted on: August 26, 2007, 01:09:48 AMHeres a knuckle setup idea i think will work nicely...



-Phil

[Newbs]

So something like this is what we are suggesting? Please excuse the shoddy paint skills lol


You can add a diff, auctally i think it would be a must like the axle from my previous post

Lol you got to it before me, shows I'm a bit slow with the old paint, yours has better detail Phil
Posted on: 26-08-2007, 00:22:41Phil the only thing I would add to yours is that I think i would 'stack' the spindles. So put both Blue bits under the Black bits (assuming they are two separate parts and not a big tube which the axle is housed in) to help carry the load. Like this one (from 4WD) -



and I would also add a bearing before the universal joint to position the axle and take the strain of the chain.

[money89tractors]

sounds good to me. My spindle setup was bassed on my T-drive setup posted earlier, so i wouldnt need the additional bearings (i dont believe).

-Phil

[Chris]

You can get the CV/UV joint at www.surpluscenter.com they're around the 30-50 mark, and they have various models rated by the amount of HP they're able to handle.


http://surpluscenter.com/sort.asp?UID=2007082611183642&catname=&byKeyword=yes&search=universal

[money89tractors]

I knew i seen some somewhere.

http://surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007082611183642&item=1-2730&catname=

Those would be best for the 1" axle, the hp rating is good for what most of us would use.

-Phil

[Chris]

The lower HP rated ones would even suffice, because remember, if you'd doing 4WD you're splitting the HP load into 4 tires, so theoretically you'd only need 1/4th of the rated HP of you're engine if you were running both F&R locked axles, 1/3 if you're running a locked rear and unlocked front, and 1/2 if you're running both F&R unlocked.

For my recovery mower (if I ever get to start that project!!!) I might be using 6 of the 28HP ones depending on how I decide to do the drivetrain

[money89tractors]

For my recovery mower (if I ever get to start that project!!!) I might be using 6 of the 28HP ones depending on how I decide to do the drivetrain

Itll be a beast!

-Phil

[MTDrider1160]

I think im gonna copy your recovery mower idea Chris, I got a 18horse opp. twin waiting for a job...

Ok i snapped some pictures of the front end on my 4wheeler to help clear things up instead of paint drawings.  Sorry its a little dirty, you really know you need to clean somthing when you have grass growing out of accumulated mud.

[Newbs]

Would it be a custom jobbie? or just a transplant from a wrecked ATV

[money89tractors]

Would it be a custom jobbie? or just a transplant from a wrecked ATV

Theyre pictures of his ATV.

-Phil

[MTDrider1160]

Phil have you had any luck finding a T drive? Not sure if contacted the UK guys?

[money89tractors]

No i havent. Ive got everyone i know keepin an eye out for one, along with a RAGB. I'm sure i could get one from the UK fellas, but shipping  i can only imagin.

-Phil

[tractorman]

http://cgi.ebay.com/C24984-Boston-Gear-R1215-type-B-Right-Angle-Drive-1-1_W0QQitemZ330159288329QQihZ014QQcategoryZ42924QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/2-Morse-right-angle-gear-box-17LV-1-RD-19-1-NEW_W0QQitemZ110162376916QQihZ001QQcategoryZ26227QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting

[money89tractors]

Those 2 Morse RAGB's for $45 shipped.. 

-Phil

[MTDrider1160]

that wimpy 1/2'' shaft probaly wont hold up.

[MTDrider1160]

No one has updated this in a month so I will.  I found an idea that would allow for a front differential, using the design from old mac trucks.  Heres a picture, its just a belt drive differential with two sprockets coming off each axle going to a stub axle, which goes to uni joints and goes to wheel. Green is bearings, red=axles, black=chain, sprockets, transaxle. blue=uni joints.

[mtd]

Looks good to me.I think it could work.I think the best idea for 4 wheel drive is taking the rearend out of a 4 wheel steer tractor plop it in the front of the tractor do a little fabricating and you are all done.

[briggsracer1892]

i once saw a gravely with a pto setup you could try finding that i will look for it

[money89tractors]

some LARGE cub cadets had a PTO output on the rear of the trans axle. also, most cub cadets are shaft drivin to the transaxle, which maybe could be used for someones setup.

-Phil

[speeddemon0308]

well.. this is the thread i was reading when i first got back on here.. and damn.. i got confused!! specially with the fisrt drawing..




but i got mine all made u up.. all thats left is mounting / placing jackshaft/ running chain.. and testing her out!!!!


Posted on: December 30, 2007, 09:12:03 PM

Looks good to me.I think it could work.I think the best idea for 4 wheel drive is taking the rearend out of a 4 wheel steer tractor plop it in the front of the tractor do a little fabricating and you are all done.

yeah.. but then when the tranny gets hung up on mud or rocks... your screwed!!!

[tntchitwood]

Posted on: December 30, 2007, 09:12:03 PMyeah.. but then when the tranny gets hung up on mud or rocks... your screwed!!!

Ok speedy this quote "raises"(LOL) the question why the crazy lift on your build.Your not gaining anything but instability. A gravel is gonna turn you over and you still have no more clearance than a stock mower? Anytime I have ever hung up on anything it was always the diff. I still like the fact that you are trying something different.I wanna see video of this thing when you try it out. How are you gonna do your steering?
                                                                                                                      Tom

[speeddemon0308]

lol the crazy lift is so that i can go threw deeper water ( without flodding my motor with water.... ) i only lifted it about.. 10 inches.. i honestly.. rarly got hung up.. thats why i like the bigger tires.. more cleaance.. which is why im using the 20" tires.. when i had the stock tanny locked with chains.. i wasent getting hung up at all.. i honestly dotn even remember being hung up..

ill get a video.. shouldent be to long till shes done.. frotn end is now finshed.. just need to figure out the sterring!

ill post some vids of the mudding we have from earlyer this year

[tntchitwood]

10-4 on the videos. Can't wait.     

[speeddemon0308]

there i just posted some from before i lifted it...

[Chris]

Ok speedy this quote "raises"(LOL) the question why the crazy lift on your build.Your not gaining anything but instability. A gravel is gonna turn you over and you still have no more clearance than a stock mower? Anytime I have ever hung up on anything it was always the diff. I still like the fact that you are trying something different.I wanna see video of this thing when you try it out. How are you gonna do your steering?
                                                                                                                      Tom

I have to agree, that thing is going to be more unstable than a crazy person deprived of their meds for a week. Your subframes and your frame are going to need serious bracing to get it to not tear itself apart...

Don't forget either:

Every 2” lift axle must be widened 1”

I see that thing lifted with stock width axles?

[speeddemon0308]

bracing is on the way..

and the frotn as acaully at about 43" and the rear axel is just in there for mock up.. they will both be at 43" when im done...

[toxic_j_2007]

I know this is an old thread, but what about an idea using the 700 with dual outputs, mount it sideways, then use farm pto shafts for driveshaft, to a ragb, then to a live axle. kinda complicated, I know, but it'll eliminate rocks and such from the chain, less chain to run.


also on where to find U-joint yokes, ...a farm store (such as ruralking.com) I work at one and we have about 20 different types of spider clips and u-joint setups for shafts from 1/2 to 2". and they only run about $25-$30 per peice:( 

[MOWchanic]

There used to be a thread on here that was a 4 wheel drive mower using a p700... BUT it got deleted for unsafe material. If Chris will allow it he may post pictures of it.

[Chris]

Yeah, he was running dual chains though, not a drive shaft setup like toxic is talking about.

[mtd]

Yeah i think he should of went with driveshafts.

[money89tractors]

If you look back into the thread a bit, theres a MS paint drawing i did using a driveshaft and a chain drive on the rear axle (if youve even seen a 4x4 polaris setup youll understand better). The driveshaft setup i have done in that drawing could be done so that the rear could also be shaft drive.

I would take 3 T drives ( one off the tranny as a transfer case, and on on each axle) and a P700 or P500.

-Phil

[toxic_j_2007]

the setup I'm talking about is using the dual outputs (mentioned earlier) and putting the driveshafts to them, then using a ragb/chain to get your 9:1 gearing at the axle. that would eliminate the need for t-drives, would make it a little more cost effective, and would allow for different sized front/rear tires.

[muddydeer]

All I can say is........
WHEEL HORSES!
Thats the first thing that comes to mind. They mad 4 wheel drive axles and setups back in the 60's when farmers wanted more pulling force. I am pretty sure you can still find these setups some where.

I have seen one of these before. About the size of my craftsman. They also had 4-wheel steering If I remembered correctly. That would be intresting

[caveman]

      Hey Guys - - -toxic - - - - you sorta lost me on that  " ragb/chain "   Would you be kind enough to give me an  idea of how it looks.  I'm a little slow on some of these terms. 

      After All - - - - it took me awhile to figure out where to put the hole for the wheel.

      Norman

[money89tractors]

lol caveman, you're a riot.

a RAGB (righ angle gear box) is just a gear box the changes input at a 90* angle. Peerless makes some and they look like this : http://www.surpluscenter.com/images/p1324C.jpg

A chain gearbox, such as a peerless 500 looks like this :




hopefully this explains things better for you.

-Phil

[caveman]

     Hey  Phil,  Always wishing you and the other Guys the best,

      I'm a little slow on some of these terms if they're not spelled out.   I  appreciate the time  and thought taken to explain those  "letters" to me.    [ Not my everyday lingo ]            I've looked at some of them and often had thoughts of " are they strong enough" ?       Or where would you put one without it being too close to the ground.   

      Anyway - - - - - -  let me pose another question.     How about a long belt from the engine pulley   all the way back to an axle pulley with the belt making the required 90 degree turn ?     Has it been tried ? I know it would take  extra guides but that shouldn't  be a problem.     Even different size pulleys could be used to  "change "gears. !!!      Just a thought.     Your input  ?

      Have a good one   - - - - - -Norman 
   

[money89tractors]

A long belt setup could be used. I have seen long belts being "twisted" from vertical to horizontal before.

I believe the biggest issue with using a belt to drive all the wheels, however, is that they will slip when introduced to even a little bit of water.

-Phil

[caveman]

     Hey Phil,   That's interesting - - - - so water is perhaps one of the problems to "work around" with a long belt.    can you think of other problems a long belt would pose ?     There should be a solution to the water problem unless  it's  in that environment  such as going through mud or standing water.        Has anyone thought of  "inventing"  a belt wiper  ?           Perhaps a makeshift   "squeegee "        Sorta like  the belt going through a housing with wiper blades  just before engaging the pulley  ! ! ! !            [  A winter project ]         

      See what happens to  cavemen  in the winter          too much cave time.     

      Always so nice to stay in touch ,    have a good one,       Norman

[ryf]

I think he'll be fine if he gets the tension good AND uses larger diameter pulleys (6" would be nice) the bigger the diameter, the more surface area, more surface area, better belt life and less slippage.. I would look for pulleys/sheeves that are 1 belt size larger than your using (get 5/8" belt pulley use 1/2" belt) so you get a bigger lip to keep it from popping out.. just a thought.

[caveman]

      Hi  ryf,  here's wishing that  your day goes well for you. 

            Glad to see you get in on this.    wouldn't the belt lose the  " wedge " for grip too soon if the belt was of a diameter that would  "bottom - out  "   in the pulley  ?        Perhaps  a pulley with  holes drilled all the way around the outer sides  for water to escape and to give the belt the needed grip - - - - sorta like traction on a tire  ! ! ! !    of course the pulley would need to be balanced  and  a cast iron pulley would be stronger  and would act like a flywheel - -  - " not wanting to stop due to it's weight " helping  in preventing   the belt from slipping.     Also giving the belt more surface area on the pulley. 

            These thoughts hit me in the form of flying bats going to the far end of the cave to escape the cold.       

            Your input - - - --  -  Have a good one - - - - -Norman

             

[ryf]

good question, some of the pulley's I've seen that so 5/8th also do 1/2, and the channel is pretty deep for that reason,   they are deep cut stamped steel pulleys, I'm using1 on mine right now for the alternator! I had one for drive as well, but went with a larger diameter cast for more "flywheel"/ inertia weight (it matters for clutch dumping!) and to get the top speed up! that said, the steel stamped one worked fine, and if I wasn't 325lbs, and my cart another 300ish, it wouldn't have mattered, but alas I am a big boy, and still want my fun!

[caveman]

      Hey  ryf,    "clutch  dumping "  ?     I guess  I've been in the cave too long.          Does  that mean that when the clutch is used - - - you lose a bit of forward power  ?        If that being the case - - -  large diameter - - heavy cast iron pulleys would be best all around  ! ! !      Is my thinking on the right track  ?          Sorta sounds like that  "set-up" could be useful in  a  power gain. 

     Your thoughts on this  ?          Take care                   Norman

[toxic_j_2007]

sorry... no internet.. just getting back...

RAGB= Right Angle Gear Box.../chain = sprocket off the side

what about cogged belts? (kinda like auto belts)  or even grips welded on the inside of the pulley?

[caveman]

      Hey toxic - - - - -  Here's hoping that your day goes well for you,

      I'm not that  "versed"  on these different drive set-ups   BUT   why not concerning the  "  belt drives "       Both ideas sound pretty good to me.   Has anyone experimented with those ideas  - - - if so - - - your findings ? ? ?

     Good thinking  - - - - -Have a good one  - - - -Norman

[toxic_j_2007]

I have to agree the belt drive may be in an issue with water and such... could go belt at frame level to chain to live axle... that way you could cover the belt with a "scatter shield" and keep all but the deepest water off it. (you'd have to twist the belt 90 deg. and use a jackshaft) just a thought...

[caveman]

   Hi  again Toxic,      Here's wishing that your day goes well for you,

      I've given that idea of twisting the belt  like you suggested  and if  I  remember correct  it would need to be a "long" belt in order to work correct.   I  don't see any problem with a set-up like you mentioned.     Perhaps we can get some of the other members to comment also.    This site is good for  "working out" some of the  "BUGS" before getting into some project too deep only to find more problems. 

      Good thinking - - - -  now all we need is some warm weather  - - - - - sorta like spring         

      Have a good one                        Norman
Posted on: January 02, 2009, 04:38:09 AM
    Hey  Guys,   Me  Again 

      Another thought came to me some time ago that  I  overlooked mentioning - - - - - I  had decided on going with cast iron "double" pulleys. 

      Sometimes the  "bats"  get in the way  while  I'm thinking                Norman

[Chris]

    Hey  Guys,   Me  Again 

      Another thought came to me some time ago that  I  overlooked mentioning - - - - - I  had decided on going with cast iron "double" pulleys. 

      Sometimes the  "bats"  get in the way  while  I'm thinking                Norman

That's what I have on my Toro. I haven't gotten the cahnce to build the clutch or test it, but I'm thinking having 2 6" double groove pulleys will overcome the deepest of water.

[goatmower]

any progress?